Episode 6: The Power Behind Networking - Interview with JingXin Laing and Daniela Sharma

:: 00:00

Welcome to the Unlock Your Block podcast, career empowerment with me, Robin Cartwright. Join me as I empower you to shine in your career, to up-level your life, and to go after your dreams. Let's talk.

:: 00:24

Hi, thank you for joining me on the Unlock Your Block podcast with me, Robin Cartwright, where we work together to up-level women in their careers and their lives. And today, we're talking about networking. I find this subject very important, and I've invited two wonderful guests that have a lot of experience in this area. So I'm going to introduce them. And I've got Daniela Sharma and JingXin Liang. Liang?

:: 00:56

Liang.

:: 00:58

I'm so sorry, I said that wrong. Nice to have you. Let me explain who they are. So we've got, JingXin Liang, is a scientist turned recruiter and account manager at Recruitomics Consulting. She has a PhD in chemistry from Caltech and has experience computational chemistry and chemical biology. JingXin has over 10 years of research experience between academia and startups. At Recruitomics, JingXin draws from her interdisciplinary scientific background to identify and connect unique talents with startup biotechs. She is passionate about her candidates and their experiences and the nuances of expertise needed to build great teams. Thank you for joining us, JingXin.

:: 01:58

I also have Daniela Sharma. Daniela has a PhD from Rutger University focusing on behavioral endocrinology and animal science, which is kind of interesting. Daniela had many years of experience in the university and research administration, as well as teaching and regulatory affairs knowledge. Now, Recruitomics has a senior scientific recruiter. She uses her research and academic affairs experience to support candidates in all stages of their job searches and career development.

:: 02:36

Thank you so much for being here. Sorry about the tongue tied today. We're doing this in the morning and my speaking hasn't really come out yet. So I would like to have both of you kind of introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit more about you other than just my introduction. So JingXin, I'm gonna allow you to go first.

:: 02:56

Yeah, thank you so much for the introduction. So as you mentioned, I am a scientist turned recruiter, talent acquisition here at Recruitomics Consulting. My background is in science, so I started out in chemistry in my undergrad. I went to grad school to study chemistry. I was working on high-throughput screening, making peptides for protein targets and disease. And so after my PhD, I sort of dabbled around figuring what I want, figuring out what I wanted to do. So I worked in cancer biology for a little bit. I was at a startup working on making glucose responsive insulins. And then I found myself here in recruiting where I get to be–

:: 03:40

That's totally different.

:: 03:42

Yeah, well, it's a great role for me. It's one of the favorite, like my favorite things that I've ever done because it really lets me use my scientific expertise but also help candidates to find jobs and build out biotechs and something I've sort of learned is that when you're in academia or even in startup, when you're so entrenched as a research scientist, no one really tells you what goes on behind finding a job, how to network, how to even find a job or how to get your foot in the door. And I get to be at this great place where I get to connect candidates and help them out in their careers and be that stepping stone to pull other people up. So I think it's a great place to be. I really love what I get to do.

:: 04:28

Awesome. And Daniela, you're up. Let's hear more about you.

:: 04:33

Oh yeah, thank you. I was gonna say that I feel very similar to JingXin about… this is probably one of my favorite roles I've had. And it's funny because early on, I started as a researcher, a lot of in vivo work with very small animals too, very large animals, wrestling rams for a long period of time. And I got a chance to be, you know, in research administration, again, for a significant amount of time, I'd love to see the back end of research, including, not just policies and procedures, but what does it take for a center or a new institute to be built, you know, from an idea to an actual, you know, working, you know, working unit.

:: 05:16

And I also had a long term working as an, you know, program director and teacher to help people, you know, learn about, you know, what they wanted to do, get the academic training and then help them, you know, transition to their next step, which a lot of times was graduate school, but in a lot of times people wanted to start their careers. And so that was sort of like a natural segue into, you know, recruiting, kind of took a chance on it, really love it. I get to use my scientific knowledge. I get to talk to people about their projects, which is always very exciting.

:: 05:56

But I also can help smooth things out in terms of the bureaucracy. A lot of that administrative regulatory knowledge comes in handy in order to help people navigate those processes. I have probably a great job. I get to talk to people about what they'd like to do, help them find their next steps, help our clients also grow. So for me, it's [women] every day.

:: 06:21

So it's really great because both of you are in the scientific field, which in history has not been a very strong field for women. And I would say probably in the last 10 or 15 years, it's been growing quite a bit, which you've got to hand it to our teachers for making it interesting for young ladies to get into science. So you know, kudos to both of you, because I know that's not an easy route to go.

:: 06:47

So in your pursuit of your career, since this whole conversation that we're gonna talk about is about networking, tell me a little bit about why you think networking is so powerful. Daniela, why don't you start there?

:: 07:02

Sure, sure. I was gonna say early on, we saw some shifts in terms of gender percentages, especially at animal sciences. It may be one of the first places in biology in general where it shifted heavily towards women. If you look at some animal science departments, they're close to 80% to 90%, 80% women, 70% to 80% women, you know, at this point in time. And then that sort of, yeah, it sort of then went into the veterinarian related fields where it's majority women at this point in time. And I think biology also, life sciences is very equitable, but not all sciences or engineering is that way.

:: 07:39

And in terms of networking, a lot of it is just making those connections wherever you can. If you're still in academia, or if you still have a lot of colleagues or friends that are working there, there's a lot even interdepartmental seminars you can go to. Sometimes they're targeted for, like a networking event. It may be casual, it may be very formal, but those events are really, really important. And just keeping in contact with people about perhaps some scientific interest.

:: 08:13

I reached out once to one of the top experts in behavior endocrinology and reproduction. And everybody's like, Oh, they're not going to reply to you. Who are you? Not true. Also replied to me and gave me some materials that I needed for my work. And when I met them at a conference, they, you know, I actually introduced myself and they took time to talk to me. So you never know, you know, where that connection would come. So I encourage people to do that.

:: 08:42

Right. And like my son is just entering college right now. And that's the one thing I told him is that you have to continue with these relationships because you do not know where they're going to go. And somebody might be in a position to help you at some point in your career. So what about you, JingXin? Tell me a little bit about, because there's a little bit of a generation between, with you and I and Daniela. So talk a little bit about how you got into networking and why you think it's so powerful.

:: 09:13

Well, actually that's an interesting question because I met Recruitomics because of networking. So yeah, I have a former member of my cohort in graduate school who had reached out to me actually. And at one point she says, are you interested in doing some recruiting on the side? And it was something I'd never done before. So I said, sure, let me try it out. And that's really how I ended up here at Recruitomics. And it's just really snowballed into one of just the favorite jobs I've ever worked, honestly. And I get to work here with a great team that's very diverse. Like I would say, a lot of women on staff. It's a female-owned and led company, which I think is so powerful. And I'm really proud of supporting a workplace like that.

:: 10:01

But I would say in terms of networking, I've never really thought of it as something that you set out to do with that motive. I think networking starts as early as when you're in school, when you are building friendships, when you are building relationships with students in the labs that you're in, the classes you're in, because I mean, you're really building out, this is your pod of people in STEM.

:: 10:28

Yeah.

:: 10:28

And everyone, yeah. And everyone–

:: 10:31

Because they're in relationships, yeah. You're building these relationships, yeah.

:: 10:34

Right. And everyone goes out and does different things with their careers. I mean, I've seen my former classmates go into either consulting, they're in patent law, they're in industry, they're in academia as professors. So it really starts out there even when you're in school. And I would say with networking, I've never really gone into it with the thought of, I'm networking for some kind of benefit in the future, even having an ulterior motive because every connection that you make, it could be a potential connection for career opportunity or you're networking and this person is a friend down the line or they are a potential mentor. There's always something or someone you can learn from in this field, right? And I really recommend that you go into it. Don't think about what you can get from a person. Really focus on making that connection and building that relationship to start with.

:: 11:33

Absolutely, but sometimes it's like networking's a bad word. It's like, I have to network? When I tell my clients this, and we're trying to work on their career and finding their job that they shine in, it's when I get down to the networking part, it's like this fear comes over them. And they're, you know, deer in the headlights thinking, You've got to be kidding me, I have to network. But in life, just in general, it's about building relationships and connections. And JingXin [inaudible], have you ever felt that, Oh, my gosh, I have to network? Fear, that bad word?

:: 12:14

Absolutely. When you go to a conference, say, as a graduate student. Right? You're supposed to network and it's just this fear of, whoa, I'm in a crowd of other people who are experts in the field. Like, and I think everyone feels a little bit awkward and you're shy and you think everyone knows more than you. But, you know, you go into it and you think everyone is in the same place. Right. And like I said, networking really starts when you're already in school. And what I went to were things like small conferences, places where there were a lot of graduate students and postdocs who are all giving presentations, right? You're all sort of in the same boat and everyone is nervous. So keep that in mind. Like if you're nervous about networking, so is everyone else. And a really great icebreaker is just for you to introduce yourself and say, Hey, what are you here for? What are you working on?

:: 13:04

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's funny because you go to these events and I always end up seeing somebody in the corner and I'm always the first one to go over to talk to them because I feel like, okay, I've been there. I've sat in that corner. I've been uncomfortable. I'm gonna help them get out of their shell. So what about you, Daniela? Why do you think it's a nasty word?

:: 13:26

Yeah, I've been that person in the corner sometimes.

:: 13:28

Yeah.

:: 13:28

Yeah, early on when I didn't know. And also when you, Robin, when you're talking about networking and people get, you know, sort of get that fear or shock, there's a lot of stereotypes around it. And TV shows and movies don't really help sometimes. We get that sleazy kind of person networking. But goodness, I think we need to just break that, break that stereotype because it really isn't the case. And as an introvert, one of the more important things you can do for yourself is really prepare before a networking. I'm calling it an event, but networking can come in a lot of different forms.

:: 14:06

And that way, you have something to lean on. If you're not really good, you know, being put on the spot and coming up with the right words or, you know, being, you know, face to face with somebody in that one-on-one, you know, having your, you know, elevator pitch or, you know, having that openness to say, you know, like, I'm here, this is what I do. I'd love to learn more about you or your company. And that's something I've always asked people, if they're going to networking event, have a goal in mind just to learn about a couple of different organizations or companies. The people will come, people are there representing them. So you'll get that personal connection, as you're learning about the companies.

:: 14:47

And something I've told someone who was younger worried about a networking event, I said, You don't get a grade in network. You can't get a bad grade in networking. It's not something you're going to be graded upon. So don't worry so much if it, you know, you feel like, Oh, I didn't get an A in this event, you know. It's a continuous process. You know, you're preparing for the event. You go to it. You're speaking. You're making the connections. And then afterwards, sometimes it's really important to remember that you're keeping those connections alive and making new connections. So don't just focus on that one event. Networking is a continuous process.

:: 15:26

Absolutely, it really is. And it is not a bad word. And even as, like you said, an introvert, just prepare yourself. I mean, I talk, myself in the mirror all the time before I go do a presentation. I go to an event just to get my confidence up so that I don't feel so awkward. But what about culturally, Daniela? I mean, in the United States alone, women for the longest time were pushed down. We were told to be the at-home moms, taking care of the children and not getting out there and networking unless it was like in a knitting group or a social sewing group or something like that. So talk a little bit about networking as a woman in the United States when you were growing up and moving into your career.

:: 16:17

Yeah, absolutely. Well, also, you know, being a little bit older, you know, networking had to be done a lot of times face to face, there were no, you know, available, you know, the smartphones or LinkedIn at that point in time. So it was very personal. That took a lot of, let's say, rethinking what it meant to be a professional, and that it wasn't based on my gender, but it took a lot of letting go of what I was thought, you know, to be “good girl,” be quiet, don't speak until you're spoken to, don't rock the boat. I would go to a lot of these meetings and it was all the same kind of people.

:: 17:00

Thankfully I had mentors, all different walks of life give me some tips on how to be in that space and be confident in what I could do and what I could bring to help me get over a lot of, basically at that point in time, a lifetime of learning of, don't really talk about yourself, don't seem overconfident. No one's really going to like you if you do that. That spills over into your professional life, which is really unfortunate. But thankfully, we have a lot of support and for lack of a better term, tools to help bridge that gender gap.

:: 17:44

Yeah, exactly. That was interesting when you talked about, you don't want to be too assertive or you know gives off the wrong vibe, but in actuality, there's a big difference between being confident and being assertive and being confident and being aggressive. And so, yeah. And you know, and then you were also talking about how the movies and things have kind of, made. It's not the best term, as for networking because I remember the vacuum salesman or the encyclopedia salesman that came to my house when I was a kid. So yeah, I think networking is a lot different when you're in the working world than it used to be, you know, 40, 50 years ago. What about you, JingXin, because you have a cultural difference as well as being a woman. So talk a little bit about that.

:: 18:36

Well I’m actually a first generation immigrant too. My family moved to the United States, New York, actually, when I was one. And I have an East Asian upbringing. And so I think I've had a lot of factors working against me in terms of speaking up, making connections. Like I wasn't socialized to be very loud to, you know, what we call talking back, which is just asserting your point of view or to be assertive. So I think what some people take for granted is that your voice will always be heard and respected. I didn't grow up, necessarily with that expectation. So I think there's… there comes a mindset change where I very much, from the time I was younger, went into things where I thought not everyone is going to hand me that opportunity. And if I want it, I'm going to have to grab the bull by the horns and I'm going to have to take it for myself. And I'm going to have to speak up to make my voice heard.

:: 19:37

So I think a lot of what I went into this was, it's going to take conscious work and putting myself out there. So something I tell myself is you don't say no to yourself. If other people shut you down, they shut you down, but you have to put yourself out there because what do you have to lose? I have nothing to lose by putting myself out there. So I think for me, it's a lifetime of training, of making the first move, being assertive, being the one to introduce myself. And so when I think about networking that way, I like to look at it holistically and that's why I've focused so much on the connection. Nobody likes being approached with, you know, someone going up to them and immediately wanting something from them, right?

:: 20:25

So I've always focused on making those holistic connections like, introduce yourself, like be open and, be open to learning from other people and about other people. Like when you're at an event, everyone else is just as passionate about their work and science and career as you are. So to not dominate that conversation, to listen because other people want to be heard. And so I think going into, with empathy too, knowing, like how hard I fight to have my voice heard and giving other people the space to also speak. And then it becomes a two-way conversation flowing back and forth, rather than you going in with an ulterior motive of, I am here to network and I'm here to just advance my career. So I'm very much a person that's connection first and everything else afterwards.

:: 21:17

Right. And you know, the other thing is there are some online networking events per se, where you can go to a workshop or something and they have a chat box. And so for the introvert or for the individual who's not used to doing this, well, I tell my clients is, go to the online workshop, go into the chat box and just type a little note to somebody. You don't even have to talk to them because you're in this workshop or you get the name of somebody and you find them on Instagram or LinkedIn or Facebook and you send them a little notes, Hey, hey, I saw you in this workshop. Would love to chat with you a little bit. That's all you have to do. Sometimes people feel more comfortable if they started out in writing versus in person.

:: 21:58

And back in the day, Daniela, when you were starting out, we didn't have the internet. So these things were foreign. So it was in person. And JingXin, when you were going to school too, it was the same thing. You had to go to events. COVID didn't happen. This wasn't a big thing of doing everything online. Whereas now, you've got a lot more online, so you can start there. But I don't like people to just stay in that. Do you kind of feel the same way that you need to really get out there in person and network and build that relationship. What do you think, Daniela?

:: 22:31

Yeah, I actually was going to say that. You're right. It's great that we have these, you know, virtual events. And I'm also really excited that these days, you know, networking events come in a lot of different formats, not just like a formal seminar or a formal workshop or conference where there's a very strict agenda and you have to register, so forth and so on. But like, for example, we went to a biotech battle of the bands event recently. So it was like a concert. It was fantastic. The music was great. And it was a networking event, but it was fun. Friday night, got to see some great bands, got to talk to people, have fun with my colleagues, learn from other people as well, meet other people.

:: 23:23

But it was in a format that you would never think about as a strictly networking event. So sometimes you have these small meetups or happy hours or in more informal groups where if you're not comfortable with a very large sort of setting, you can have smaller, I guess, more tailored settings. So I really appreciate and get excited to know that these networking events come in a lot of different forms. So you can start out virtually as you mentioned, Robin, but then find those, maybe those smaller, less formal events could be a great segue into getting more into that in-person networking.

:: 24:00

Yeah, exactly. JingXin, what do you think? What are your thoughts around this?

:: 24:05

Well, first off, I wish I was closer to Massachusetts because I would have loved to have gone to that event.

:: 24:11

You would have loved it, yeah.

:: 24:12

I would have, yeah. So our company is remote and then I changed jobs during COVID. So a lot of the connections I was making was, virtual and I haven't had the chance to attend, say, an in-person conference just yet. I will say networking looks very different post-COVID than it did before that. So what I really actually learned is how to connect with people better on video and a lot of what we do, whether it's for work or even talking to colleagues or meeting people outside of the company now happens on video. So you really learn to connect and be present, right?

:: 24:50

I think some of us, when we've gone to lectures on Zoom, we're so used to turning off our cameras and not engaging and doing something else, right? So what we really learned to do is like, make sure you have your cameras on and you talk to people just like I'm talking to you as if you're talking to them in person, like engage, really listen. And then it made me think about the value of body language when we're talking, even maintaining eye contact on a screen. So I think that's really changed the landscape of how we network and talk to people, having to do it virtually.

:: 25:26

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So what advice would you guys give to a woman starting out for networking? Maybe she's been in that career for a while. She's trying to reboot her career and do something different or move up. And she's not happy with the company she's at. So she's really got to get out there. What advice would you give this gal? Because these are our listeners, are these women who are trying to elevate their careers? What advice would you give them on networking? Daniela, why don't we start with you?

:: 25:57

Yeah, that's a good point. And to anybody who's like an introvert, like myself, what I would suggest is do, really do your personal preparation first. Whether that's taken a sort of like a, visualize and assess what you can bring to the table and what you're looking for, really looking for in your career. Also, to work on that confidence level. Like I said, I still struggle sometimes with, again, a lifetime of teaching not to be assertive or not to be, you know, exude that sort of confidence. So doing that work ahead of time, you know, can really go far so that when you are ready to join those events, virtual or otherwise, you have yourself grounded. You know who you are, what you can bring, and that you're ready and open to share in a very positive way. And people will feel that.

:: 27:00

And I'll speak as a behavioral endocrinologist. Here's a little trick from one introvert to all the others that may be there, or anyone who gets very excited or maybe anxious when you're meeting someone. Those stressful feelings will last about five minutes and then they will go away. The hormones just need to clear. So give yourself that five minutes and just know. And that's where having a lot of that elevator pitch in this practice helps. After five minutes, you'll feel so much better. That stress will disappear. So just keep it in your mind. Like I just, you know, five minutes, I can make it through. And then you'll be able to be much more open and relaxed, you know, as you're making the connections.

:: 27:42

And so true, because even when I do presentations or I get out in front of groups and I just for the first, like, couple of minutes, I'm just angst. And I have to remember to slow my voice down because my energy is just up. And then after that, I calmed down and I'm able to enjoy what I'm doing. And it's the same thing when you go and meet somebody new. I mean, even as much as meeting somebody at my son's schools. I remember going and I was so nervous, like, Hi, how are you? I'm so, so’s mom. Oh, okay. That's great. So yeah, that's like, yeah, you're right. First five minutes. So what about you, JingXin? What advice would you give to our listeners?

:: 28:25

I am also an introvert, and I'm not one of those people who is great with on the fly. So to second that, Daniella, I also think your elevator pitch is important, and also preparing beforehand wherever you're going. Like if you're going to a career fair, have your elevator pitch ready, you know, three to five sentences about what you do, how you're going to open up a conversation with someone. But also to go into these things, I'm gonna go back to making a holistic connection there. Take the pressure off yourself. Don't think about it as I have to meet someone because I need to nail an interview or I need to get a job. Really think about, Look, they're a person too, just like you.

:: 29:09

And I think in terms of networking, something that's really helped me actually is an informational interview. If you reach out and you make a connection, and you want to explore new career paths, you don't have to start out by applying to jobs right away. If you know someone or someone who knows someone, reach out to them and ask, Hey, can I set up an informational chat? I would love to know about what you work on and what paths you took in your career to get to where you are. And people–

:: 29:44

Absolutely.

:: 29:45

People love talking about themselves.

:: 29:46

Yeah, I was just going to say that. I tell that to my clients all the time. People love to talk about themselves. So you don't even have to talk. All you have to do is ask them.

:: 29:54

Right. And so ask educated questions. I've had an informational chat where I just ask, What was your background? What were the skill sets that really helped you get to where you are? What do you love about your job? And then especially if you are pivoting careers and you mentioned a situation where someone's very unhappy at their current role, do not bad mouth your current employer when you're going into this, absolutely not. And just look at it positively. Every place you work, whether that is your academic research, whether it's grad school or a job later on, every place is a learning experience. No matter how positive or negative that experience was for you, chances are you learned something. There's some hard or soft skill that you can take with you to your next role.

:: 30:42

So you led into my next question, what is your biggest lesson in networking? Your biggest lesson in regards to networking.

:: 30:53

Biggest, biggest lesson, I would say be open-minded, be receptive. I would say when I'm networking, what happens is people from different fields will give advice, and whether that's advice on interpersonal skills or what you may want to focus on if you want to pivot. Don't be defensive. It's not critical of you. People will offer advice, sometimes unsolicited, and just be open to listening to all of that. Take it with a grain of salt. You don't have to take it to heart, but if there's other people in the field who are more experienced than you are, they probably have a thing or two they can impart on you. And you can learn from every person that you cross paths with.

:: 31:39

Absolutely, absolutely. Very good. Daniela, what about you? What was your biggest lesson in networking?

:: 31:47

I think right now what I would share with people about networking and a lesson to think about is really what I said in the beginning. It's not a singular event. It is a continuous process from, you know, from going to researching or doing maybe some short informational interviews or chats through the event, through the connections you've made, and then beyond, continuing those connections, building off of what you've learned of, sharing your connections with others. That sometimes is a really powerful aspect of networking I don't always think about. It's like, you know what? You know, I really like being that person that knows other people. I love sort of matching people with other people. That's really something I enjoy.

:: 32:37

I'm networking in a sense, but I'm helping other people as well. And that's an important piece of networking that, a lot of times happens after an event, which I think is really crucial to mention and keep aware of, just because you went to an event and you may have exchanged business cards or details. That doesn't mean it's over. Keeping the connection alive, warm and building off of that is just as important. So I know a long story short, I guess my advice is to think of networking as a continuous process.

:: 33:10

Yes. Yes, I agree.

:: 33:14

It's so interesting you touch on the part of connecting other people to Daniela, because I think with women in STEM, it's so important that we do support each other. Part of that is when you make a connection, if you can help someone else, to not pull that, don’t pull that ladder out from under you. Because I always think about how my connections and people help me get to where I am. And the best thing I can do is to pay that forward where I can.

:: 33:44

Right, right.

:: 33:45

Very true.

:: 33:46

I would say probably 98% of the jobs I've had in my career have all been through networking. All been about who I talk to, maybe not immediately, but somebody to somebody to somebody. Yep, you know, sixth degree kind of thing. So I am just announcing this. And then if you want to make an announcement as well about your organization, I am going to put together a virtual networking event in January of 2024. So I will invite JingXin and Daniela to join me on that along with many other organizations. This is specific for biotech pharma.

:: 34:27

So it's STEM related, sorry folks, but if you just want to come and you're not in STEM, you know, biotech pharma, they still need other roles, marketing, accounting, and you're more than welcome to come and network. It's just a way for you to meet other people and in any online events. So we'll separate out into groups and you can meet people. So if you want to join, I will be advertising this probably in December for signups for you to attend my virtual free networking event.

:: 35:01

So that is my little offering because I think networking is so important, and it's something that I work with my clients on a lot. So Daniela and JingXin, do you have something you would like to share as well?

:: 35:27

Absolutely. All right. Well, you heard it. Thank you so much listeners for being here today. Really appreciate it. And thank you, Daniela and JingXin for being with us. I will keep you all informed socially on my website, as well as LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, et cetera for the networking event in January. So we will see you then. Thank you.

:: 35:53